Ok, so one common theme among a lot of the PUA experts that I've read is that they had some kind of bad relationship experience that pushed them to recognise there own shortcomings and improve themselves at all costs. Often they found that their needy behaviour had pushed the girl away, sometimes to cheating, and eventually they realised that the girl wasn't quite as amazing as they had let themselves believe.

I can see that this would be a great motivation to get out and put the hard work in to improve one's life, but what if you don't get that unwanted kick in the nuts that get's you started. I have had the great misfortune of finding myself in two great relationships in a row with girls who I was extremely attracted to, great sex lives and real love and devotion from her. Yet in both I've found myself feeling the need to end the relationship in order to be able to improve myself and learn how to relate effectively to other humans.

My first relationship started when I was 18 years old. I was a virgin and was forced by my mum to call a girl she worked with as a cleaner, who she assured me was extremely pretty and shared my great taste in music. Amazingly, it turned out she was right, and I begun a great relationship with a true princess of a girl (also a virgin) that lasted nearly 5 years. However, except for the first 1-2 years I spent a lot of time during those 5 years thinking about and reading about 'game' and feeling a strong desire to end the relationship in order to practice what I was reading. I can imagine readers thinking that I obviously mustn't have been as attracted and in love with this girl as I think I was but I know this had nothing to do with that.

I started to read 'game' material (David Deangelo) because I wanted to learn how to pick up girls but I quickly realised that 'game', when done well, was really about helping me become a Confident Man, a man who could look anybody in the eye, wasn't afraid to say what he thought, and commanded attention from those around him. I wanted to feel that when I went out with friends I could have fun talking to strangers (including but not only pretty girls) and not feel like I had nothing to say.

During those 5 years I broke up with her for short periods probably 3 or 4 times for these reasons, but always ended up getting back together, partly because I couldn't bear the devastation that she was going through and partly because being single and alone seems to suddenly not feel like such a good idea once you're actually single and alone. Actually, one time I tried to tell her honestly about my motivations and how I felt that it was something that I had to do before I could honestly commit to something like marriage (which is where it was probably heading), but all she heard, and remembered like an elephant was, "I want to fuck other girls". Suffice to say my opinion of the truth in certain contexts was changed.

Anyway eventually 1-2 months before our 5 year anniversary we broke up once and for all when I moved to Colombia to do a year long academic exchange. Obviously I'd heard a few rumours about the girls and was looking forward to meeting them and enjoying being a single man while improving myself using the 'game' that I'd been studying for so long….Then about 3 days after arriving I met a very pretty local girl through a friend who I began hanging out with a lot. We hooked up once drunk, then kept hanging out as friends but succumbing to temptation every couple of weeks over the period of a couple of months. She made it clear early on that she liked me and wanted a commitment of some sort but I was honest with her and told her that I just got out of a long relationship and didn't want to promise any kind of exclusiveness. Regardless we continued to hang out more and more, and despite agreeing that we weren't dating, were as much the couple as is possible.

I would go out with other friends and be very much be open to meeting other girls but the pretty girls over her do not jump into your lap (despite what you might read on some forums) and me not being as proactive as is necessary and still lacking many of the most basic fundamentals of game (eye contact, posture, aggressiveness) meant that we were in effect maintaining a monogamous relationship, not to mention sleeping in the same bed 4-5 nights a week on average. Despite this I reiterated numerous times that I felt the need to be able to go out to meet new people, each time she told me that she would have to stop seeing me then but some excuse to continue seeing each other always came up and we'd get right back to where we were.

Now I actually did bring someone else home (an interesting experiment in leading and not vocalising the escalation at least) and due to some very bad luck it was necessary to tell her basically straight away, something which has caused her extreme grief and pain. I felt justified at the time given that I'd said many times that I wasn't planning to deny myself opportunities to meet other women but I suppose I recognise also that, despite the words, what we had and what she had invested in me didn't deserve to be treated so frivolously.

This brings my story to today, and here I am wondering if I'm crazy for throwing away another relationship that I recognise as being very good, with another girl that I'm extremely attracted to who loved me and devoted herself to me, in the pursuit of 'game'. I know that if I told her right now that I wanted to be with her and only her, we could be together, and we would have fun like we always have. I admit that i feel very tempted but am I afraid I'll just be lying to us both.

If you made it through all that thank you.

P.s. Despite being very attractive girls, I recognise now that both had very low self-esteem, explaining in part why they've been so invested in me.

Think carefully about what you really desire. Imagine you have the ability to talk to strangers easily, have good posture and look people in the eye; NOW what do you want? Can you visualize the outcome that you want?

Also know that most of what you say you want can be easily obtained WHILE you're in a relationship. You can fix your posture right now. You can practice eye contact in every interaction you have, ever. You can become more social in countless fun ways, as well as develop yourself as a man. So what do you want, really?

Edit: Fwiw, I've had the same. The moment I became better with girls I got into a relationship with a low self-esteem girl. I SAID I didn't want anything serious, but my actions said otherwise, and very soon she had feelings for me. For a long time I didn't end it because I didn't want to hurt her feelings (BAD reason not to end it). I didn't want to be in a relationship because I feel a need to have sex with hot girls, before I settle down, basically. I'm starting to desire a relationship more as time goes on and I get more experience. But, if you're truly happy in the relationship, why end it? If you're unhappy in the relationship, then why continue?


Also, actions speak louder than words in relationships. You keep telling your girls that you do not want a serious relationship or that you want to learn this stuff, which causes them great grief. But what do you DO? You hang out with your girl 5 times a week. You can say anything you want to that girl, but your actions are saying "We are in a very serious committed relationship". Also, if you see a girl once every week or two weeks, then feelings will not come quickly. If you see a girl 5 times a week, feelings will develop quickly.

Besides thinking of what you really want, you also need to work on setting boundaries. You go to another country to bang a lot of girls. A girl likes you, and voila, you're in a serious relationship. If you really don't want to be in a relationship and set boundaries then you will simply make it clear to the girl that you do not want a relationship, and your actions will say the same: you will be in clubs picking up girls, not in her bedroom.

In my opinion, Success is being happy and living the life you REALLY want, not getting your bed count up by pulling drunken club girls. I know lots of people who are charismatic, happy and successful in all areas of life and could get lots of girls if they wanted, but never had the urge to. If you are a really confident man, you don't have the need to prove it by getting your bed count up. Obviously, you can be really confident and live a player lifestyle, because it's your choice, but not because you have the inner need to. I had this need myself for a long time and I now think it's pretty pathetic.

If you want to give up a "good" relationship just to have more girls, can the relationship be really that good? I would ask myself what in you generates this desire for validation by being perceived as a player. I asked it myself at some point and the answer wasn't very nice.

About your cheating: I learnt my lesson a few weeks ago with regards to that. I was dating a girl and thought it was obvious for her that it was some casual relationship for me and I thought she was thinking the same. Well, pretty silly misunderstanding of me. Of course, she expected much more and we never talked about it. I should have been really clear on that matter and just have told her what I think and feel so there are so misunderstandings. Basically, I was obligated to be really clear on my intentions and feelings. Then I wouldn't have hurt her feelings which is the only reason I regret, because she was just another girl I liked (and I really liked her but not more) and she was in love till I broke her heart.

Just ask yourself what kind of human being you want to be and what values are important for you. Cheating on someone isn't really a sign of high character. If someone scammed me for even a meaningless amount of money, I would perceive him as pure scum, a person without character and values. Not because of the amount, just because of the character behind it. With relationships and dates, I didn't understand emotionally for a long time why some people make such a big deal out of it when they get cheated on. The reason for that was probably that I couldn't really open myself up and didn't really love the girls.

Why would you give up a relationship if it's a good one that makes you happy? Isn't that the whole reason people get into this stuff in the first place?

I think your situation isn't uncommon for people who have been in long term relationships right from the start. Sometimes no matter how amazing the relationship is or the girl is, you are just not at the right point in your life for them and there's nothing you can do about it.

This is a column from Sugar that does a much better job of detailing the reasons why than I ever could. If that woman started a church I would try and join that church.

Dear Sugar

For future reference, if you start seeing a girl more than once or twice a week without seeing anyone else, a lot will probably assume you are actually monogamous. That said I think if you've been clear from the start that its casual it's their issue to deal with more than yours.

Heyy i just want to preface this by saying i'm extremely inexperienced but the one thing i've got going for me is i've read more pick-up materials than i can stand. I am in no way advertising another company but Rob Judge shares the same pick-up philosophy as Mark so his words resonated with me.

"You want girls. You’re not doing this primarily to impress other people, learn to become more social, or embark on a journey of self-discovery. While you may enjoy secondary benefits as a result of wanting girls (such as the ones mentioned), your primary objective is dating attractive girls in as little time and using as little effort as possible."

Basically the idea he tries to demonstrate that game is basically a means to an end. And while he was advicing against ancient pick-up lore of field-testing routines which could potentially ruin your interactions, i believe its applicable to your situation. Game is only a means to an end. For all of us, we are just trying to get girls. So once "game" gets you the girl enjoy the girl. Now if your questioning your relationship with them, then that's probably a symptom of a more deeply rooted problem, and should evaluate those relationship by taking time off. But you seem like a smart guy when you do find a girl you are genuinely drawn too i'm sure your heterosexuality will prevent you from tossing a wonderful relationship in search of skills, which you probably already posses.
Well that's my two-cents hopefully it was insightful.

Some really good and thoughtful advice here. I really appreciate it.

@Phillip
If I'm honest and blunt I think that a large part of it is simply that I want to have sex with hot girls as well, but I really see that as being a natural extension of sorting out my general social insecurities (losing neediness and making myself more vulnerable in mark's terminology). In terms of setting boundaries, well I tried to be strong…I actually told her I didn't want a relationship a number of times right from the beginning and each time it was quite a sad kind of goodbye but something always happened that lead to us seeing each other again a little while later and we had fun and a lot of attraction so it was easy to just go with it.

@Extropy
I'm not sure if I'm seeking to be a player for validation. I can't be sure because there's no doubt I've got some issues about the whole thing but I don't think I'm seeking any external validation at least, maybe internally. More than anything I just feel strongly sexually attracted to a lot of girls I see and think it would be fun to be able to act on that confidently.

Regarding the cheating, I had said many times that I wasn't going to say no to meeting other girls if the opportunity came up and she always said 'ok but when that happens we won't see each other anymore', but it's true that I should have known how it would hurt her a lot. In purely selfish terms, it probably is a good outcome for me in some sense. I was too weak to break it off with her properly but hurting her this way makes it much easier for both of us to move on for good. And I do realise that the man I aspire to be wouldn't need to hurt a girl like that just to be able to move on.

@Livewire
Some people, sure. But me, I don't know, that's what I'm trying to figure out. In my relationships I've also sometimes felt that I'm being held back (or holding myself back). I recognise that this has everything to do with my own will power as well but for example, I've let slip a lot of opportunities to meet people and create a large group of friends over here because of spending so much time with the girl. And also following a strict exercise routine is easily sidetracked by having a pretty girl in your bed almost every morning.

@FirstAidKit
Thanks for that article. It was very helpful.

@Poet145x
Definitely worthwhile to keep in mind what aim of the "game" really is but I think it's unavoidable that it will have a wider impact on your life. I certainly hope so.