I found this article once which I thought summed it up perfectly...
mASF post by "imperfect"
posted on: mASF forum: Advanced Discussion, April 4, 2005
-The problem with ASF-
I’m sure that ASF has helped some people, some of us more than others, but
overall ASF is not the answer. ASF is not an end all solution to your
problems, and although it does, somewhat, lead you in the right way, it most
definitely also leads you in the wrong way as well. It actually hurts your
chances of getting laid past a certain point, and now I’m going to tell you
Let’s say that someone is unhappy with their body. So they find a website on
bodybuilding that recommends lifting weights for two hours a day seven days a
week, eating three solid meals a day and doing five hundred crunches before
going to bed. So this person, not knowing any better, follows this advice to a
T. And, over time, they will indefinitely get some results. They will lose
some fat and will gain some muscle. But for those of you who know about
lifting weights, you immediately recognized that this is over training, and
definitely not the BEST or anywhere close to the best way to lose fat and gain
muscle. If instead they learned about training properly and finding a diet
appropriate for them, they could easily double or even triple their gains in a
short amount of time.
Okay, let’s use another example in case you don’t know much about bodybuilding.
Let’s say that you’re overweight and want to cut some fat for this summer. So
you take up running, but instead of just running a healthy amount, you run ten
hours a day. And then you decide to start eating healthy, but instead of
eating a balanced diet, you go down to two tiny meals a day. So yeah, you’re
gonna end up skinny, but you also are deprived of nutrients, you feel tired all
the time, you look anorexic, and your body burns all of your muscle because you
don’t eat enough protein.
What I’m getting at here is that’s what ASF does in short. It causes you to
take action and not act like a total nerd or wimp, but it also can turn you
into a weird, uncomfortable try-hard.
If you take some action you will get some result, which is why ASF is in a way
helpful, but what if in the long run it ends up messing you up? Wanna know how
to fix it?
-The types of people who come to ASF-
I think a lot of this comes from the fact that there are many different type of
people who find ASF. There is one group, who is totally lost, and they have no
concept of what makes people like each other, they are probably virgins, and if
they ever had girls who liked them, chances are the girls were just as weird as
them. These type of people spend most of their time at their houses and have
either no friends or just a few who act like them. Their hobbies are video»
games, TV, the internet and not much else. They find their identity by
relating to other people like them, spending their time playing video» games or
watching TV shows, and prefer planned out structure for everything. They are
very uncomfortable in social situations and can’t hold a conversation with a
stranger in most instances.
The second type of people are pretty normal, most likely not virgins, have
always had a decent amount of friends, and would take hanging out with friends
or playing a sport over a video» game any day. If they aren’t having success
with women, it’s probably because they are not around women or they are not
trying to be social with women. As soon as they start talking to girls and
asking for their numbers, they’re going to see instant success.
Now here is where the biggest problem happens: first many of the ideas that
people consider “the rules” were founded by the first type of person (the
nerd). Second, the two types of people are trying to give each other advice.
When in reality, the first type of people (the nerd), their only goal should be
to become like the second type of person (the cool guy) and THEN worrying about
If someone asked me to help them become better with women, I’d use my common
sense to help them. I’d have them start lifting weights with me, I’d make them
stop playing video» games if they did, I’d make them join a sport, I’d have them
buy new clothes, and then I’d tell them to go out and be social and act normal
around girls. And this advice makes perfect sense to me, and it also makes
sense to the second type of guys.
However, let’s say that instead someone asks a type one person for help with
women. So the type one person says, “Okay I want you to first read these three
archives, then I want you to take some notes while watching these seduction
videos». Okay, after that you need to come up with a 20 minutes stack of
routines and an opener you’re comfortable with. Okay, now go over this
checklist and memorize some routines for how to kiss a girl. Got it? K, good
luck.” And to the type one person, this makes sense. For a while I couldn’t
understand this; to me when I saw a post saying “Just be confident, if you
assume the girl likes you then going for rapport early is fine as long as it
isn’t needy” I didn’t get why other guys would flame the poster.
I’d see threads like “I like this girl at my school, what should I do?” or “A
girl gave me a compliment, how should I respond to this in the future?” or
“What is a good CF reply when girls laugh at me when I tell them they can’t
have me? Because I’m considering using this line, but I’m worried that it will
come off uncalibrated!”. And I am just like, are these guys fucking serious?
What the hell are these guys problems, why can’t they just be normal?
And I’m sure the same thing happens when a guy who is the second type writes
out a paper and the post gets flamed by about fifteen other guys. Like someone
will post, “Guys this stuff isn’t rocket science. Just go up to girls and
introduce yourself, buy some clothes from Hollister and The Buckle, start
lifting weights, and be confident.” Then in the next five minutes you’ll see
about a dozen replies saying, “I’m so sick of inner game this, inner game that.
We need structure. Post up some openers or something!” or other guys saying,
“Man this “ride the vibe” stuff is gay, we need details!”, or “Easy for you to
say. But I’m a type 2-left sided brain, analytical, logical thinker, I need
some structure bro, some structure!”. The reason isn’t because it’s bad
advice, it’s because the first type of person cannot understand this advice.
Their “be normal” is stay at home and play dungeons and dragons, so when you
tell type one guys to be normal girls still don’t like them, when you tell type
two guys to be normal girls love them.
For us type two guys, the best advice you can give us is act normal and be
social, and this is what gets us laid and has gotten us my lays in the past.
I’m not totally anti-specifics, and I do think that “TD’s 25 points” is good in
that it will quickly fix a few problems, but the way some of you guys take it
is so off it’s ridiculous. Like 25 points, I read that and realized that I do
a couple of those things, and after fixing them noticed that my jokes got more
laughs. If you carry this list around with you or are always looking to
correct this in other people, then you are taking it too far.
-ASF fucks with your head-
The other problem is ASF will try to make guys who are already cool guys (type
two) think that they are nerds (type one) and NEED structure, and that it’s
okay for you to be a nerd.
Like when TD or Mystery posts “Deep down I am a nerd, which is why I need all
this structure and complex theory”, some guys relate to that. They don’t
realize that overcomplicating things hurts them, even if the theory is solid.
That’s why from time to time you’ll see a post like, “Help! I’ve always been
good with girls and I’m pretty good looking, but since I read ASF I’ve been
going out four nights a week and hardly even get numbers. What’s wrong, should
I add more routines? Do I need better transitions?”.
This was (to a small extent) me for a while, I would go out and sarge and not
get shit done (explained why later), or just would stay home for 3-4 days, and
I would start thinking “Oh shit I need to fix this!” and start looking for
routines or write down a long two page report on my word document. Then a few
days later I’d go out with some people I met at my school and make out with a
girl at the movies or meet some new girls or whatever, and when I got home that
night I’d read the word document and couldn’t help but laugh at myself.
The reason behind this is that the guys who people look for all their ideas
from are socially retarded nerds. They need long routines and gimmicks because
they have no idea what a normal conversation with a girl looks like. They need
to be told to do SOMETHING if the girl isn’t putting out because they’ve never
had sex» with a girl before, so for them the idea that they have “ASD blasters”
helps them, but for guys like me who have been with a decent number of girls
before ASF, it just creates all these little imaginary problems in our head
that we, in reality, shouldn’t even have to deal with.
Now I’m sure that some guys are going to be thinking, “But wait I’ve had these
problems. When I sarged before and I didn’t have alpha BL I’d get blown out,
and when I did get girls to my room they got ASD, so how can you say this?”.
My answer to this is if you believe something is true and that it will come up,
then it will. If you believe that you have to learn to do back flips in order
for a girl to want to talk to you, then guess what, you’re right. It’s going
to cause you to lose confidence and act weird, so that’s why you have these
problems. If you believe that girls already like you and all you have to do is
go up and have a normal conversation with them and then ask for their number,
then guess what, you’re right too.
Have you ever been watching TV with some friends, and you’re trying to get your
DVD player to work so you keep unhooking shit and rewiring it and messing with
the menu but you can’t seem to get it. Then your friend comes up and just
changes the TV to channel 3 and poof your movie is playing? That’s what ASF is
like. What you have to do to get a girl’s number is very basic, but if in your
head you have to flip all these switches, adjust all these knobs, shift through
fifty phases, run sixteen routines, and dance on your head, then chances are
you aren’t going to get very many numbers.
-Confusing cause and effect-
What happens when you go out four nights a week, three hours a day, to clubs
hitting on drunk girls every single week? The answer, eventually you will get
laid. I don’t care if you have a seven hour routine sequence, a natural style,
or if you just go up to girls and ask them if they prefer paper or plastic when
they shop for groceries, eventually some girl is gonna think “wow my friends
don’t hate this guy, he’s kind of cute and I’m kind of drunk!” and your dick is
gonna slip in her. You don’t need six archives and a DVD series to tell you
that, and being able to do this doesn’t make you a guru either.
Now the problem comes when guys go out and just keep trying all this “CF, open,
ask them if I look gay, adopt them, etc” type stuff. In moderation a lot of
this stuff is good, and the overall attitude encouraged (don’t supplicate, be
funny, assume they like you) when not taken to the extreme is very helpful, but
when you take this stuff to the extreme and then get laid and credit getting
laid to taking this to the extreme, we got a problem. In simpler terms, a lot
of guys go out and get laid simply by going out and acting normal, but because
they used an opinion opener at one point, they credit their lay to “RSD
method”, whatever that means. So then other guys read that and think that just
going out and acting normal isn’t enough, so they stress out and try to learn
In other words, I like some of the stuff on ASF. Don’t supplicate, wear cool
clothes, find a way to approach girls that doesn’t make anyone uncomfortable,
etc. All helpful. It’s when guys convince themselves that they have to play
by all these made up rules that they become total tools around women. And then
when they finally do get laid, even though them getting laid wasn’t because of
some routines or opener, they credit their success to “I used a lot of
push-pull and dominated the frame” and post about in ASF. No, the reason you
got laid is you were persistent, didn’t make anyone uncomfortable, acted
normal, and was social around girls. YOU got yourself laid, not ASF.
I find it so ridiculous when I read some of the stuff that gets posted here.
Guys posting stuff like, “Well now that I’ve ran 1000 sets, I can just go up to
girls and say hi because they sense my PUA vibe/aura, but you guys need to
concentrate on opinion openers!”. Once again, I’m thinking “is this guy
serious?”. Just because it took you 1000 sets to realize that normal
conversation with girls is all you need doesn’t mean everyone else will take
that much time to realize the same thing.
If you get laid, it’s because you acted normal, were social around girls while
being at least a little bit confident, were persistent enough, and didn’t make
anyone uncomfortable. It wasn’t because of your projection, routine stack, CF
comment, frame domination, or whatever.
KISS – keep it simple, stupid.
-Get rid off all the bullshit that is hurting you-
I remember reading a post by TD, and it was by far the best advice I have ever
seen on ASF. If you haven’t read it yet, write it down and read it as soon as
you finish with this post, it’s called: “wear cool clothes and act normal” by
“TylerDurden”. Even in this post I think he tries to force too much structure,
where less thinking would be helpful, but overall it’s on point.
In it, he says:
“Your delivery? Scrap it.
Body language? Scrap it.
Voice tonality? Scrap it.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. You think that you need all this
“super key money” stuff to your game when really it’s just bullshit and ends up
messing you up. You start worrying about “dominating the frame”, “projecting”,
“your delivery”, “calibrating your subcommunication” and all this other
BULLSHIT and it turns you into a weird, unconfident tool who is no longer
capable of a normal interaction with the opposite sex».
Do you even know what half of this means? “Dominating the frame”? “Project
and deliver”??? What does that mean? Is there any clear definition you guys
even agree on, because if so, I can’t find it. Your delivery? What is this?
Your calibration? Why is it that when someone posts shit about this everyone
replies “great post man!”, but when someone posts “be normal and confident”,
which is what “dominate the frame” really means when it comes down to it, they
Right now get rid off all this shit. I can sympathize here because I used to
think about women a lot because of ASF, until I realized that all of this PUA
stuff is just another form of supplicating. Guess what, complimenting a girl
to getting her to like you is lame. So is constantly being an asshole to make
girls like you. Neither one really works better, if being an asshole gets you
more results it’s because a) you do it more on more girls, and b) are more
confident doing it because you believe it will work. Either way you’re being a
tool because you are going out trying to MAKE people like you. If you’d just
go out and have fun and be social, you wouldn’t have to even think about it.
Now it also occurred to me that some guys just can’t comprehend “act normal and
be social”. Like I listed earlier, for me be social and act normal gets girls
to like me. For other guys, it doesn’t even register with them. So if you are
a type one guy, how do you become a type two guy?
First let me make this clear: how cool you guys think people who get laid are
is blown way out of proportion. I hate reading stuff about how these RSD guys
have “such money delivery, they will shatter your reality and suck you into
their dominated frame”, or how people worship naturals and try to brag about
having friends who are naturals. Give me a fucking break. Hey, if they are
ex-nerds getting laid, props to them. But I’m going to tell you right now that
they blow this stuff way out of proportion. Have to join a secret society to
get laid? Bullshit. Getting laid without “solid game” is a “fool’s mate”?
How entertaining or cool do you have to be to get girls to talk to you? The
answer is not very much.
How much does a girl have to be attracted to you to want to hang out with you?
Once again, probably a lot less than you think.
Now here is what you need to do:
- If in college, join a frat.
- If in high school, join a popular sport (baseball, basketball, or football,
not golf or some lame sport that doesn’t get you invited to parties).
- If out of high school, take up basketball (YMCA, membership is cheap) or
boxing (boxing gyms are also pretty cheap to join), not karate, most karate
people are 40 year old computer nerds.
- Start lifting weights (http://www.ast-ss.com
and then sign up for max-ot, great
- Wear cool clothes (start off at Hollister, Abercrombie and Fitch, and The
Buckle and just have someone who already has some sense of style go shop with
you until you develop your own sense of style)
- Stop trying to fix your delivery, tonality, or frame control. In fact, stop
thinking about this stuff entirely.
- Stop hanging out with nerds.
- If you own any video» games, throw them all away. Not tone down how much you
play, not stop tomorrow, not stop next week, throw them out now.
- Hang out with guys who are already good with women. They don’t want to hang
out with you? Then find something you have in common with them. Talk about
sports, join sports, talk about cars, talk about movies, just don’t talk about
video» games or how you washed your mom’s hair last Friday night for fun.
- Stop trying to pick up and make people like you, just go out and be social.
- Stop trying to plan out how to have a conversation, just jump right in there.
- Don’t spend more than an hour a day max in front of your TV or computer
(combined, not an hour each).
- Take care of the basic stuff look-wise, meaning: go tanning, take care of
your skin, get a good smelling cologne, get a good haircut, etc.
- When considering what will help you, use your common sense. Although ASF
will tell you that KJing will help you, common sense tells you that it’s almost
always not helpful and to just go out and join a club or something.
- Go to places where it’s practical to meet new people. If religion is your
thing, think church. If it’s sports, think YMCA or sports bars. If it’s
acting, think community theater. COMMON SENSE.
- Act normal. Act normal. No more ASF. Only acting normal!
- Think less, act more!
Okay, well this half guide half complaint turned out longer then I expected.
It’s pretty ironic, I wanted to write a post about how ASF overcomplicated
things and it came out 6 pages on word document! Hopefully though it will
manage to get through to at least some of you.
But who knows, maybe you really are about to hit another epiphany, maybe a
breakthrough is just one archive away, maybe your next lay is just a routine
and a CF comment from you. Either way, best of luck.