Why did coaching plateau? Were there simply not enough clients to make decent money, or did the travel expenses and whatnot eat into your profits?

Do you find any particular type of coaching, in-person, phone, email better from a business perspective?

I always got the impression that dating coaches were living these rockstar life styles. Maybe they portray themselves that way on purpose, or people just make assumptions and figure "If he's charging so much for two days he must be totally loaded"

Here's what nobody gets... even business consultants I've spoken to... The coaching does not bring in money. In fact, all of the guys KILLING it in this industry, sell stuff online (David D, Vin DiCarlo, etc.). And the companies based around the bootcamp model (Love Systems, RSD, Pickup101, etc.) are always struggling.

The rock star shit is definitely marketing. It was a little more true 4-5 years ago, but the market's so saturated now, and people are buying bootcamps less and less. Bootcamps have high expenses, they take a lot of time, they require a lot of time to sell.

We charge that much for two days because we can. When I charged $500 a weekend, I'd get like 5-6 clients a month. When I charged $1500, I'd get 2 a month. That's the same money for 1/3 of the work.

Early on, I kind of had an option: get a marketing guy to go into business with me, or just learn how to do it myself. I was so broke and making so little money at the time, that the latter made more sense. I had no money, little income, but what I did have was time. I had 16 hour days with no other obligations and no debt. So I went for it. The reward is higher to. If I do eventually build this up into a six or seven figure business, it's 100% mine and not split with 1-2 other people.

What it means though is slower progress and slower growth. I outsource stuff now. But back then, I just didn't have the funds to do it. I thought about asking my dad for a loan, but never did.

That make sense. I guess I always just assumed that if a coach was selling services for however much that he was always fully booked.

But I guess the pool of clients is only so big and has to be split between a ton of different companies.

Do you think the semi-recent trend of skepticism towards the dating industry and the effectiveness of the bootcamp model is contributing to people buying coaching less, or do you figure it's mainly because the economy just sucks or something like that?

Probably both.

It's just a far less reliable business model.

(04-12-2011 02:40 AM)Mark Wrote:  Here's what nobody gets... even business consultants I've spoken to... The coaching does not bring in money. In fact, all of the guys KILLING it in this industry, sell stuff online (David D, Vin DiCarlo, etc.). And the companies based around the bootcamp model (Love Systems, RSD, Pickup101, etc.) are always struggling.

I had NO idea. I totally bought into the rockstar thing.

(04-12-2011 02:40 AM)Mark Wrote:  Here's what nobody gets... even business consultants I've spoken to... The coaching does not bring in money. In fact, all of the guys KILLING it in this industry, sell stuff online (David D, Vin DiCarlo, etc.). And the companies based around the bootcamp model (Love Systems, RSD, Pickup101, etc.) are always struggling.

The rock star shit is definitely marketing. It was a little more true 4-5 years ago, but the market's so saturated now, and people are buying bootcamps less and less. Bootcamps have high expenses, they take a lot of time, they require a lot of time to sell.

We charge that much for two days because we can. When I charged $500 a weekend, I'd get like 5-6 clients a month. When I charged $1500, I'd get 2 a month. That's the same money for 1/3 of the work.

Early on, I kind of had an option: get a marketing guy to go into business with me, or just learn how to do it myself. I was so broke and making so little money at the time, that the latter made more sense. I had no money, little income, but what I did have was time. I had 16 hour days with no other obligations and no debt. So I went for it. The reward is higher to. If I do eventually build this up into a six or seven figure business, it's 100% mine and not split with 1-2 other people.

What it means though is slower progress and slower growth. I outsource stuff now. But back then, I just didn't have the funds to do it. I thought about asking my dad for a loan, but never did.

Fascinating. I always thought the coaching thing was a real cash cow too.

Mark I read somewhere (I can't recall if it's you who wrote) that although the whole PUA culture is dying, but that dating advice for men is thriving. Would you still say that the industry 'baseline' for 30 lays would then apply? - instead of say perhaps 'dated 500 girls'

Not that I have anything against lays - but it seems to be more PUA culture-ish, rather than dating adivce-ish

Don't get me wrong. Coaching can be easy money some times. But nobody's getting rich off of it. I guess that's my point. Coaching is great to make some quick bucks and travel a bit. But it's simply not scalable. It's not really a long-term business model. There's a reason why LoveSystems is suddenly releasing ebooks and seminars as fast as they can produce them. They need to.

As far as experience, I think if you're doing in-field coaching, you need to have a baseline of sexual experience. Keyword: sexual. I say lays because to lay a girl, you pretty much have to go through every phase that you would be required to teach a guy (meet all the way through early relationship management). Your students are going to have a wide variety of problems, and if their problem falls in an area that you don't have much experience, then you're going to give them shitty advice. Good advice can't be faked. It just can't. It's so easy to spot fake advice in this industry.

Also, if you coach, you need to be able to demo. And to demo without losing your shit, you need to have a very strong foundation of experience. A guy could just go on PlentyofFish and get 200 dates. I don't think qualifies him as "experienced" at all though.

Yes, lays aren't the most important thing in the world, but they're a good benchmark to judge experience. Guys who hit the 15-25 lay area, typically they've gotten more success than any of their friends or wingmen, and banging a couple dozen girls still FEELS like a lot, so they begin to over-estimate how much they actually know or that they've actually experienced. And sure, newbies who are virgins and clueless, they can still teach them something, but they're not going to be able to teach them well, in my opinion.

And that's the thing, just about none of these coaches ever make it anywhere. I'd say for every guy who "breaks in" to the industry -- and even some guys who break in don't make enough to support themselves -- for every guy who breaks through, there are 10 businesses that go under within six months. I get emails for links and stuff from them all the time. Six months later they're gone.

The reason why is because the key to this industry is being able to spit out new, original content on the regular, and there are very, very, very few people who can do that. Most people just parrot Mystery Method, or Juggler or RSD, and typically you never hear from them again after six months. Anyone who breaks into this industry breaks into it because they're writing and teaching shit no one's ever thought of before. It's how I broke in. It's how Rob Judge broke in. It's how 60YoC broke in.

Creating new and unique content regularly requires two things: a good brain and a lot of experience. Also, since the market is so much more competitive these days, and there are a shitload of guys who are boasting a shitload of experience, that requirement is even higher.

The dating advice market in general is continuing to grow. The PUA market is shrinking. But both markets are also getting much more saturated. It's far harder to break in now than it was back in 2008.

I don't say all of this stuff to dissuade you. I'm just being very, very blunt because I see dozens of yahoos come and go every year, thinking they're about to cash in on the party lifestyle. This business is not a rock star lifestyle. It's hard work. It's a retarded amount of hard work -- mainly writing, but also building a web presence and answering the same questions over and over and over and over again.

I would say if you just want to make some bucks on the side, then it's pretty easy to get into. Just about any major city in the world has a bunch of guys willing to pay $100 to help them approach or whatever. But if you want to turn it into a full-time career and a living, then you're going to have to show the world something they haven't seen before.

Again, I'll note that I have no idea what the market is like in Malaysia or even what the culture is really like. I know that there are a lot of Latin PUA companies starting up, but they're having a lot of trouble just because the culture is so different down there. What works in the US doesn't necessarily work there at all. That may be the case in Malaysia too. I don't know.

(04-12-2011 05:35 PM)Mark Wrote:  Don't get me wrong. Coaching can be easy money some times. But nobody's getting rich off of it. I guess that's my point. Coaching is great to make some quick bucks and travel a bit. But it's simply not scalable. It's not really a long-term business model. There's a reason why LoveSystems is suddenly releasing ebooks and seminars as fast as they can produce them. They need to.

As far as experience, I think if you're doing in-field coaching, you need to have a baseline of sexual experience. Keyword: sexual. I say lays because to lay a girl, you pretty much have to go through every phase that you would be required to teach a guy (meet all the way through early relationship management). Your students are going to have a wide variety of problems, and if their problem falls in an area that you don't have much experience, then you're going to give them shitty advice. Good advice can't be faked. It just can't. It's so easy to spot fake advice in this industry.

Also, if you coach, you need to be able to demo. And to demo without losing your shit, you need to have a very strong foundation of experience. A guy could just go on PlentyofFish and get 200 dates. I don't think qualifies him as "experienced" at all though.

Yes, lays aren't the most important thing in the world, but they're a good benchmark to judge experience. Guys who hit the 15-25 lay area, typically they've gotten more success than any of their friends or wingmen, and banging a couple dozen girls still FEELS like a lot, so they begin to over-estimate how much they actually know or that they've actually experienced. And sure, newbies who are virgins and clueless, they can still teach them something, but they're not going to be able to teach them well, in my opinion.

And that's the thing, just about none of these coaches ever make it anywhere. I'd say for every guy who "breaks in" to the industry -- and even some guys who break in don't make enough to support themselves -- for every guy who breaks through, there are 10 businesses that go under within six months. I get emails for links and stuff from them all the time. Six months later they're gone.

The reason why is because the key to this industry is being able to spit out new, original content on the regular, and there are very, very, very few people who can do that. Most people just parrot Mystery Method, or Juggler or RSD, and typically you never hear from them again after six months. Anyone who breaks into this industry breaks into it because they're writing and teaching shit no one's ever thought of before. It's how I broke in. It's how Rob Judge broke in. It's how 60YoC broke in.

Creating new and unique content regularly requires two things: a good brain and a lot of experience. Also, since the market is so much more competitive these days, and there are a shitload of guys who are boasting a shitload of experience, that requirement is even higher.

The dating advice market in general is continuing to grow. The PUA market is shrinking. But both markets are also getting much more saturated. It's far harder to break in now than it was back in 2008.

I don't say all of this stuff to dissuade you. I'm just being very, very blunt because I see dozens of yahoos come and go every year, thinking they're about to cash in on the party lifestyle. This business is not a rock star lifestyle. It's hard work. It's a retarded amount of hard work -- mainly writing, but also building a web presence and answering the same questions over and over and over and over again.

I would say if you just want to make some bucks on the side, then it's pretty easy to get into. Just about any major city in the world has a bunch of guys willing to pay $100 to help them approach or whatever. But if you want to turn it into a full-time career and a living, then you're going to have to show the world something they haven't seen before.

Again, I'll note that I have no idea what the market is like in Malaysia or even what the culture is really like. I know that there are a lot of Latin PUA companies starting up, but they're having a lot of trouble just because the culture is so different down there. What works in the US doesn't necessarily work there at all. That may be the case in Malaysia too. I don't know.

Mark, thanks for your reply. There's a lot to think about there. I'll seek to experience as much as possible and hopefully get to the stage where I have something to show that hasn't been seen before.

Here's an open invite to come visit Malaysia one day if you want to experience a new culture - and I'll host you best as can. Just let me know.

Very interesting Mark. I am currently contemplating about starting up a Dating Advice buisness in Germany. Thing is, I have no idea about buisness and have no money to spend on building it.