I know that some girls play games to feel assured about the guy's interest in her, IMHO it's part of her process to feel comfortable with you, . Have you ever tried to disarm a girl's games? Or you just play along without letting her see you like a low value guy? I mean, you don't let her play with your time or disrepect you in any way?

I don't play games. Never underestimate the power of being willing to walk away.

(04-08-2011 03:21 PM)Mark Wrote:  I don't play games. Never underestimate the power of being willing to walk away.

I was just wondering though - this is hard to do when we are not dating as much + when we have invested quite a bit in the outcome or when we've had a dry period.

I agree with you here but can imagine a lot of guys having trouble with this concept including myself.

IDK for how long have you been in the community but you shouldn't be in ANY of those situations that you are mentioning. You should have at least 1 FB, more if you can, that way you don't look desperate and needy. If one girl doesn't answer the phone or can't go out with you certain day call the another one or others. You shouldn't invest ANYTHING in the outcome, that's the idea of DETACHMENT you should be detached of the outcome, when you are not detached of the outcome you act nervously and insecure because you CARE about the outcome. Think about how you act when you deal with a girl that you don't like that much or how you act when you have a GF and you are hitting on another girl: You are relaxed, aloof because you don't care about the outcome so you act in a confident and relaxed way creating a lot of attraction. And if you have a dry period, go out and open sets, don't put all your eggs in one basket and don't masturbate watching internet porn; that kills your agressiveness to go out and hit on girls. I hope this helps.
About the games per se I've tried everything I've scared girls that have been acting ridiculous when playing games and it has worked, they cut the crap and come back to me. Some other times I play dumb and along without letting her play with my time or disrespect me in any way and I've got the girl. I really believe that not all girls play games out of bad reasons or because they want to play with you, I think it's their way to feel comfortable about how interested you are in her, plus some girls are prude, some have had bad experiences with guys, etc. I always read the BL of the girl to have an idea if she's just playing games or she's leading me on. She can't hide her attraction toward you even though if she tries to. Her behavior is gonna betray her, the way she looks at you, does she stand close to you?, does she do favors for you?, does she touch you with her boobs, etc, etc.

(04-12-2011 09:05 AM)Prague Wrote:  

(04-08-2011 03:21 PM)Mark Wrote:  I don't play games. Never underestimate the power of being willing to walk away.

I was just wondering though - this is hard to do when we are not dating as much + when we have invested quite a bit in the outcome or when we've had a dry period.

I agree with you here but can imagine a lot of guys having trouble with this concept including myself.

Yeah, it may be hard Prague, but it says something deeper about a guy... that he's willing to sacrifice his own self-respect to try and earn the respect of a woman. Any guy who does this is going to come off as needy and unattractive. So yes, it's difficult, but ultimately it's a self esteem and pride issue.

Leo: You're describing all of these tactics you've tried with girls who play games. What they all have in common is that they're all behaviors based on her, not yourself. That's why I simply say walk away. I don't like games. So I walk away. I don't care what she does or says after that. I walk away because I value my own preferences more than I value hers. Even if you're aggressive or demanding with her, you're still basing your behavior on her, which sub-communicates that you prioritize her over yourself. And no matter how dominant and aggressive you ACT, you're still sub-communicating that you're weak and submissive to her will.

When you just say, "I don't play games" and walk away, you sub-communicate that you don't and will never prioritize her above yourself. This is the way of an attractive man. Sometimes she'll come back. Other times she won't. Either way, I don't care at that point.

Great post Mark.
I totally agree only because I played a bunch of games and it stressed me out, put me out of balance and made me feel reactive. It became an addiction because it gave me a sugar high of feeling smart and in control when in fact I was setting a precedant that I couldnt easily un-pick without playing even more mind games. Its exhausting just thinking about it!

Setting my stall out early on these points in a relationship sets the right tone and gives her confidence in me. She knows if I dont play games then I'm coming from a place of honesty and integrity which are hugely attractive qualities and I set myself apart from the pack of weak dudes she has been with in the past.

She may not like that and walk away because she wants me to play games and jump through hoops but for my own peace of mind I know I cant live like that. Communicating that to her can be tough!!

It seems that we are going in circles about this subject Mark, Lol! IDK man, I see it more about being understanding about her fears instead of seeing it like I prioritize her above myself. In my 3 years in the community I've had some experiences with different women, yeah; some of them have sex with you after few minutes of interaction, for others it takes more time. Are just the first kind of women worth it of your attention and sex? For example, I've dated 2 girls that were betrayed and they were EXTREMELY affected for this reason, they were terrified of being betrayed again, they really needed professional help but I didn't take their fear to start a new relationship personally, I didn't think that they were playing games like a way of making fun of me but just like a way to "make sure" that I was interested in them. Did these relationships pan out? No, they didn't because as soon as I noticed how sick these girls were I just moved on, it's not worth it to invest so much time with girls that are so scared about the furture but I could understand the reason of their fear and tried to deal with it. I've met women in this journey of PU that have told me that they haven't had sex for YEARS, why? Because they don't trust men anymore, because they have been betrayed and suffered a lot IF I decide to invest time in any of these women am I priotizing them over me or am I being UNDERSTANDING about their situation? I remember when you were hitting on Erika Awakening, my God you invested so much time and effort on that girl (if I'm not wrong who decided to don't have sex anymore, yuck!) until you were able to seduce her with a ton of comfort and emotional connection, were you priotizing her over you or were you understanding about her situaion and decided to make an effort to seduce her? And there are other factors, how about if the girl that you are hitting on is not interested in casual sex BUT you like her, you enjoy her company and you want to get to know her better, how about if she's not that kind of girl? Are you just going to move on because she doesn't have sex with you right away? A lot of guys say that if a woman if playing games or doesn't put out quickly she's not really interested in you. I don't think so, I think she can be scared, distrust men, or even more be really interested in you, etc, etc. Is it your business? No, not at all, but if you like her and women are emotional creatures why not make her feel comfortable and secure with you? I thought that's what you tried to say in your: http://www.practicalpickup.com/passion-for-the-process

In that article you even say: Learn to love the games they play.

Now it seems that you have a zero tolerance about those games. Everybody has the right to change their mind, don't take me wrong, if now you don't want to deal with those games anymore I totally understand it and respect it, but that wasn't you position before. You even say that you prefer to deal with older women because they don't play games http://www.practicalpickup.com/the-guide-to-older-women
Well, I think older women don't play games because they know they can't do it anymore, they are not so attractive anymore, their time is short. What a difference when you deal with a young girl in her 20s, she has so many options, she can pick and choose, especially if she's hot. Are you gonna take her games personally? Are you gonna put all your eggs in one basket? Are you gonna get desperate and needy? Of course not, I just play dumb and along and I get the girl, that's all. And to be honest I've met some women in their 30s that do the same shit: scheduling games, phone tag, playing hard to get, etc, etc. It's their way to feel secure about you, they really believe that if they make you work hard they are gonna get you.
I think that somehow you can compare playing along with her games with the same attitude you have when she's shit-testing you, are you gonna take it seriously? Are you gonna be reactive? are you gonna get mad? Or are you gonna show her that you are unreactive 'cause you are confident about yourself and you really don't care about what she thinks about you? Whatever!

BTW, I've got a lot of girls playing dumb and along, so it works. I don't think I come off as needy and unattractive I think it comes off as perseverance.

(04-12-2011 12:28 PM)Mark Wrote:  Yeah, it may be hard Prague, but it says something deeper about a guy... that he's willing to sacrifice his own self-respect to try and earn the respect of a woman. Any guy who does this is going to come off as needy and unattractive. So yes, it's difficult, but ultimately it's a self esteem and pride issue.

Leo: You're describing all of these tactics you've tried with girls who play games. What they all have in common is that they're all behaviors based on her, not yourself. That's why I simply say walk away. I don't like games. So I walk away. I don't care what she does or says after that. I walk away because I value my own preferences more than I value hers. Even if you're aggressive or demanding with her, you're still basing your behavior on her, which sub-communicates that you prioritize her over yourself. And no matter how dominant and aggressive you ACT, you're still sub-communicating that you're weak and submissive to her will.
When you just say, "I don't play games" and walk away, you sub-communicate that you don't and will never prioritize her above yourself. This is the way of an attractive man. Sometimes she'll come back. Other times she won't. Either way, I don't care at that point.

Well, in that case I need to go back and edit that article. Because I would not use that word any more.

Here's the thing, I agree 100% about some women needing more time than others. And I agree 100% about understanding where she's coming from and having patience. But if a woman needs more time, that's not her playing games. It has nothing to do with games. It's just her following her emotional process. And as long as she's honest about that process, I don't mind waiting.

It's funny you bring up Erika. Originally, I found her very interesting and enjoyed talking to her. So I talked to her. I never really cared if we ended up having sex or not. I have tons of female friends and figured she'd end up as another one. We ended up having sex, and that's cool. Later on she got all caught up in the community nonsense, decided she wanted to become a coach, and kind of went off the deep-end altogether. Around the same time, ironically she began playing games with me to try to get me to commit to her. By games I mean she manipulated and misled my emotions to get me to do what she wanted. I dropped her in about 2 seconds flat and haven't ever looked back.

I don't know if you're just misinterpreting women's behavior or if you're just using the wrong word or what. But games = woman manipulating you. I don't stand for that. On the other hand, if a girl has been abused and is scared to death of intimacy and needs a lot of time and work to unravel that, then that's cool. But those aren't games. She's not manipulating me. Her emotions are genuine.

When you say "girls play games with me" it implies that she cares enough to put in the effort to manipulate you. It's a malicious thing. 99% of flakes and 99% of "hard to get" behavior is not manipulative and it is not games. It's just a girl being a girl and changing her mind a lot. When you use the word "games" it implies that she's doing something to intentionally get her way at your expense. She's not. 99% of girls are not out to hurt guys or fuck with them. When you use the word "games" it implies that somehow she has a power over you. Even the phrase "disarm her games" implies that this is some battle that you must overcome. It's not. Girls are not trying to battle you. They WANT you to seduce them. But if you keep seeing them as some sort of enemy, then they're going to keep flaking on you.

(04-13-2011 10:33 AM)Mark Wrote:  Here's the thing, I agree 100% about some women needing more time than others. And I agree 100% about understanding where she's coming from and having patience. But if a woman needs more time, that's not her playing games. It has nothing to do with games. It's just her following her emotional process. And as long as she's honest about that process, I don't mind waiting.

Alright, we finally agree about something. When you say she's honest about her process what do you mean? She says to you she needs more time, she's not ready yet? What? Or she keeps giving you excuses to get together?

Quote: Around the same time, ironically she began playing games with me to try to get me to commit to her. By games I mean she manipulated and misled my emotions to get me to do what she wanted. I dropped her in about 2 seconds flat and haven't ever looked back.

We have to clarify what do you understand for women playing games and what I understand for women playing games.

Quote:I don't know if you're just misinterpreting women's behavior or if you're just using the wrong word or what. But games = woman manipulating you. I don't stand for that. On the other hand, if a girl has been abused and is scared to death of intimacy and needs a lot of time and work to unravel that, then that's cool. But those aren't games. She's not manipulating me. Her emotions are genuine.

I'm gonna explain after the next parragraph what I understand for games.

Quote:When you say "girls play games with me" it implies that she cares enough to put in the effort to manipulate you. It's a malicious thing. 99% of flakes and 99% of "hard to get" behavior is not manipulative and it is not games. It's just a girl being a girl and changing her mind a lot. When you use the word "games" it implies that she's doing something to intentionally get her way at your expense. She's not. 99% of girls are not out to hurt guys or fuck with them. When you use the word "games" it implies that somehow she has a power over you. Even the phrase "disarm her games" implies that this is some battle that you must overcome. It's not. Girls are not trying to battle you. They WANT you to seduce them. But if you keep seeing them as some sort of enemy, then they're going to keep flaking on you.

Again I think you are misinterpreting what I'm I'm trying to say, when I play along when the girl is playing games I get the girl, they just offer some resistance and I overcome that resistance. That's it.

Ok, here it is what I understand for games when I say women are playing games, not with me, in general; they do the same thing with all guys that's why I don't take it personally. I've had girls hitting on me that say to me CALL ME: Just to turn into an ice cold girl that ignores me and PRETEND not to be interested in me. Or if I do call/text her she doesn't answer me. Therefore she's playing hard to get. IMO game-test: Is he really interested in me or he's gonna throw the towel quickly? Another example: I've been progressing in the interaction with X girl and as soon as I propose the date she starts to give me shit about how she can't get together with me, she says something along these lines: IDK, maybe, I let you know (I hate this phrase BTW), etc. That's when I say you have to disarm her games, you can't be standing there like an idiot and just say: ok, let me know. No way! You have to say something like: Hmmm!, that's a lot of uncertainty and I don't like uncertainty when you are sure what day and what time you are available we can make plans, otherwise this is not gonna work out. I see this game more like a test: Is he gonna let me walk all over him, or what? Other games that I've seen women of all ages playing: phone tag (you call/text her and she doesn't answer), scheduling games (she doesn't know when she's gonna be available = playing hard to get), ignoring you when you are close to her, just to confuse you. Flirting with other guys in front of you or telling you that she likes that guy that is in front of you (IMO game-test, let's see how he's gonna react), etc, etc. That's what I mean when I mention games, almost all women do this in my own experience and I asked if you try to disarm their games to see your opinion about it. Right now I just play dumb and along not letting her play with my time or disrepect me in any way. Now I'd like to know what do you understand for games when you mention them here: http://www.practicalpickup.com/passion-for-the-process and here: http://www.practicalpickup.com/the-guide-to-older-women
to see if we are on the same page or not.

Quote:I've been progressing in the interaction with X girl and as soon as I propose the date she starts to give me shit about how she can't get together with me, she says something along these lines: IDK, maybe, I let you know (I hate this phrase BTW), etc. That's when I say you have to disarm her games, you can't be standing there like an idiot and just say: ok, let me know. No way! You have to say something like: Hmmm!, that's a lot of uncertainty and I don't like uncertainty when you are sure what day and what time you are available we can make plans, otherwise this is not gonna work out.

I agree with your course of action. I don't agree with the labels "games" or "tests." Again, I think they imply an antagonistic relationship, and they also put 100% of the responsibility on the girl for what's happening, which I don't think is accurate at all.

I just see it as she doesn't like me enough to commit to a date and I'm not willing to wait around for a girl who doesn't know if she likes me enough. It's not her fault she feels that way. She's not trying to mislead me.

Let me ask you this, if a girl's way into you one night, but then two days later decides she actually doesn't want to see you, so she doesn't answer your calls or texts. Is that her playing games? No. She just changed her mind. She didn't like you enough. That's called flaking.

Quote:phone tag (you call/text her and she doesn't answer), scheduling games (she doesn't know when she's gonna be available = playing hard to get), ignoring you when you are close to her, just to confuse you.

Again, I think you're just being hyper-sensitive and interpreting these things as girls "playing games" when really, they're probably busy and need to call you later, or they just don't like you that much. I've played phone tag with girls for weeks. Some people are busy. Some people don't prioritize dates very high in their life. I can't think of a single example in the hundreds of women I've dated where a girl has CONSCIOUSLY chosen to not answer my calls because she thought it would make me like her more. If it happened, I'm sure I dumped her on the spot.

Again, the idea of "playing games" implies that they actually care... care so much about what you think about them, that they're willing to lie and mislead you. I've fucked girls for months and had them not care enough about me to actually GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to lie, not pick up my calls, make me think they don't like me or whatever the hell those types of girls do. In my experience, most women just aren't that into you. And so when they display hot/cold behavior, it's about them, not about you. To assume she's consciously fucking with you is a very self-centered way to look at it.

Sorry, but either you're consistently picking up the only conniving and twisted women, or you're just misinterpreting girls being flaky and not being that into you as "games."

When I mention "games" in those articles, what I'm referring to is flakiness and indecisiveness. I'll be more careful when using that word from now on.