(08-17-2011 02:15 AM)Mark Wrote:  Well, then you should have been more specific and said, "primary texts of religions" not "religions." Comparing the Bible to the Quran is quite different from comparing Christianity to Islam.

In my book, the teaching is everything dude.

It is unfortunate that most christian cares more about "jesus sacrifice" than his biggest contribution to christianity, which is his semon on the mountain.

(08-17-2011 02:10 AM)Brian Wrote:  Ok, I stand correct by this because I do not know of this.

When I compare religion, i meant the literal meaning of the actual teaching itself in comparison to others. Since most of you barely ever read the teaching and cares more about the "arts and history" of it, it's pointless to even discuss it with you.

But Brian, clearly you haven't read the holy texts of hinduism. They literally advocate animal sacrifice.

I am also assuming you are not well versed in both the Pali texts of theravada buddhism, and the similarities and differences between those texts and the Sanskrit texts considered primary in Mahayana buddhism. And yet you listed buddhism as your top religion.

Another thing that shows clear ignorance is that the statement "we should evaluate religions based on what their sacred texts literally say" would be totally alien to buddhists.

Take this famous Buddhist parable.

Quote:"It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him."

(08-16-2011 09:39 PM)Mark Wrote:  I highly, highly recommend starting with Ken Wilbur. I'd start with "A Brief History of Everything" or "Up From Eden."

Interesting. I actually am not wild about Wilbur. While he is a good writer and certainly knowledgeable, I do feel like he glosses over serious difficulties in reconciling religious traditions with science, and with eachother.

(08-17-2011 02:17 AM)Brian Wrote:  

(08-17-2011 02:15 AM)Mark Wrote:  Well, then you should have been more specific and said, "primary texts of religions" not "religions." Comparing the Bible to the Quran is quite different from comparing Christianity to Islam.

In my book, the teaching is everything dude.

It is unfortunate that most christian cares more about "jesus sacrifice" than his biggest contribution to christianity, which is his semon on the mountain.

Spirituality is something that is experienced, not read about. I don't care about theory. Give me field reports. Tell me about a zen meditation retreat you went on. Or a visit with Yogis in India. Or the time you went with your friend with him to his Mosque. Or the Coptic funeral you attended. In my book, you're basically a keyboard jockey right now. Sure, you've read a lot about religion (actually, on second thought, it seems like not much), but what have you experienced?

(08-17-2011 02:33 AM)Jon Wrote:  

(08-16-2011 09:39 PM)Mark Wrote:  I highly, highly recommend starting with Ken Wilbur. I'd start with "A Brief History of Everything" or "Up From Eden."

Interesting. I actually am not wild about Wilbur. While he is a good writer and certainly knowledgeable, I do feel like he glosses over serious difficulties in reconciling religious traditions with science, and with eachother.

I agree with that. It's unfortunate his health went to shit a while back, because I would have loved to see him address those issues.

I was huge on him when I was younger. Now, I realize that there are a lot of inconsistencies in his details and the practical applications of integral theory to every day life are close to none. But still, his overall model and worldview has been highly influential on me throughout my adult life. My approach to many things is always colored through that lens, as you may or may not have noticed.

And all in all, I think when it comes to explaining why some religions behave in certain ways during certain time periods, he nails the explanation as well as just about anybody. He's excellent at navigating explanations of religion as both anthropology and spirituality without ever over-stepping either way.

Cool to see another Wilber reader. They're not common.

(08-17-2011 02:39 AM)Mark Wrote:  

(08-17-2011 02:17 AM)Brian Wrote:  

(08-17-2011 02:15 AM)Mark Wrote:  Well, then you should have been more specific and said, "primary texts of religions" not "religions." Comparing the Bible to the Quran is quite different from comparing Christianity to Islam.

In my book, the teaching is everything dude.

It is unfortunate that most christian cares more about "jesus sacrifice" than his biggest contribution to christianity, which is his semon on the mountain.

Spirituality is something that is experienced, not read about. I don't care about theory. Give me field reports. Tell me about a zen meditation retreat you went on. Or a visit with Yogis in India. Or the time you went with your friend with him to his Mosque. Or the Coptic funeral you attended. In my book, you're basically a keyboard jockey right now. Sure, you've read a lot about religion (actually, on second thought, it seems like not much), but what have you experienced?

When I was young, I saw a descriptive video of animal factory in United State, within 10 second of that feeling, i instantly converted myself to become a vegetarian. To me, that very brief feeling of compassion that cause a huge change in my lifestyle IS spiritual.

For people who are ignorant of spirituality, they think that sitting there at the church listening to a priest talking or even talking to a yogi is a spiritual thing.

Spirituality is actually learning about a theory AND how to apply it to make you grow as a person. It's not about appreciation of the art of it or casual glance at it as a history.

I recommend you guys read the book "inner life" by leadbeater, then we'll talk.

The buddhist adherent to comparison between religion is because they do not want their follower to make the same mistakes like that of a christian when they create the crusade going around murdering millions of people. Reading the text without understanding the context and intention behind it shows your ignorant.

(08-17-2011 02:46 AM)Mark Wrote:  

(08-17-2011 02:33 AM)Jon Wrote:  

(08-16-2011 09:39 PM)Mark Wrote:  I highly, highly recommend starting with Ken Wilbur. I'd start with "A Brief History of Everything" or "Up From Eden."

Interesting. I actually am not wild about Wilbur. While he is a good writer and certainly knowledgeable, I do feel like he glosses over serious difficulties in reconciling religious traditions with science, and with eachother.

I agree with that. It's unfortunate his health went to shit a while back, because I would have loved to see him address those issues.

I was huge on him when I was younger. Now, I realize that there are a lot of inconsistencies in his details and the practical applications of integral theory to every day life are close to none. But still, his overall model and worldview has been highly influential on me throughout my adult life. My approach to many things is always colored through that lens, as you may or may not have noticed.

And all in all, I think when it comes to explaining why some religions behave in certain ways during certain time periods, he nails the explanation as well as just about anybody. He's excellent at navigating explanations of religion as both anthropology and spirituality without ever over-stepping either way.

Cool to see another Wilber reader. They're not common.

Yeah, I read a marriage of sense and soul specifically because I was interested in finding a book that talked about reconciling spirituality and science, so it was one of those situations where i was most interested in what was probably one of his weaker aspects. I should go back and read some more when I get a chance, though. I can see what you mean about being influenced by him in your work, and now that you mention it I can clearly see how his stuff relates to your discussion of the Internal and External movement in Models.

Sense and Soul was his "mainstream" book and one of his weakest IMO. I'd recommend checking out "Brief History of Everything." That's generally his best starting point for the really serious side of his work.

cool. i'll check it out.

(08-17-2011 02:39 AM)Mark Wrote:  

(08-17-2011 02:17 AM)Brian Wrote:  

(08-17-2011 02:15 AM)Mark Wrote:  Well, then you should have been more specific and said, "primary texts of religions" not "religions." Comparing the Bible to the Quran is quite different from comparing Christianity to Islam.

In my book, the teaching is everything dude.

It is unfortunate that most christian cares more about "jesus sacrifice" than his biggest contribution to christianity, which is his semon on the mountain.

Spirituality is something that is experienced, not read about. I don't care about theory. Give me field reports. Tell me about a zen meditation retreat you went on. Or a visit with Yogis in India. Or the time you went with your friend with him to his Mosque. Or the Coptic funeral you attended. In my book, you're basically a keyboard jockey right now. Sure, you've read a lot about religion (actually, on second thought, it seems like not much), but what have you experienced?

There's a saying somewhere that Judaism is a religion of deed, not creed. I think this should apply to all faiths. That said, I do think an understanding of theory is important. I consider myself a Christian, but I likely never would have gone this route if it hadn't been for the recent attempts to situate Christianity in the context of 1st Century Judaism. I'm also very interested to liberation theology, which interprets the gospels as a means for liberating the oppressed, thus putting the impetus on the believer to take action. Perhaps "interpretation" is a better word here than theory, because it's these two interpretations that that require you to act, and i think you'll get far more out of your spiritual experiences with action than with too much intellectualizing.