I've just got back home and received some email newsletter that mentioned frames in pickup, so I've realized that I haven't fully grasped that concept yet. All I know is that frame is underlying meaning of the interaction, almost every "tactic" and example written in articles on how to set some frame seems kind of weird to me, or tryhard, or maybe I just misunderstood everything.

So let's just say that I nothing about it - how would you guys explain frames to me? Do they matter that much at all, because maybe it's even better not to think in that way?

A frame is based on the idea that everybody is looking at the world through their own set of interpretive principles, or map, or frame. In any situation, you have a frame, which is basically a paradigm, framework, or map of how the situation works. So you interpret things that happen to fit in the frame. For instance, a guy in tattered clothing starts talking to you and before he says anything you assume he wants money because in your frame, guys in tattered clothing are beggars. The idea is that hot girls have frames that are not condusive to them going home with you, and frame control is a set of techniques to get her to adopt your frame, where she does want to go home with you. I think it's mostly a bunch of marketing. Not to say that any technique that gets referred to as frame control is wrong, but it's basically an NLP holdover that is used to make techniques sound like secret super powers.

Jon's comment makes sense. It's kind of like
"your general interpretation of the world"
"your usual story about how things go"
"your 'map' or 'model' of the world"
"your set of expectations about how things tend to happen"

A frame is not a law or a rule or something "correct" or "right".

Usually it's set up somewhat competitively in terms of which frame "dominates". It's adversarial when set up that way (which I don't like - might as well make things win-win).

For example, a woman might have a frame of "a guy has to take me on at least three dinners of $100+ before I'll sleep with him". You might have a frame of "I can get a girl so into me that she'll want me to take her home in an hour". These frames aren't compatible - at least one of them is going to be false in an interaction.

Thinking too hard about this stuff in field is very counterproductive. This is more of an unconscious mind thing. If you're going to work with frames at a basic level, just aim at holding a few useful beliefs such as "everything a woman says or does is a demonstration of her interest in me", or "every woman wants me".

Actually, a nice non-adversarial frame for a man to hold is: "Women love and crave sex as much as men do, but social rules make it difficult for them to go for what they really want. I'm a master at helping women navigate the social landscape with grace, so that they can get what they desire so desperately."

Hey guys I found this post by Rob Judge about frames:

Rob Judge Wrote:FICTION: Controlling the frame will get a woman attracted to you

Whenever I hear someone bring up “frames,” a little part of my soul wilts away and dies. The entire concept is steeped in nerdom. Any man who thinks he can talk to a woman and subtly “re-frame” the conversation so that it appears as if she’s the one pursuing him, and then, magically, by dint of that “frame battle,” said woman will find herself mysteriously attracted to him, is a man who’s living on another planet.

Of course, since this concept tickles the inner analytical nerd in every guy, the community obsesses over “frames”: who’s winning a frame battle, how to re-frame her statements, what are the best frames to set. In all my real world experience, not once has “framing” ever gotten a woman attracted to me. The only action you’ll get from “frames” is from other nerds who are titillated by frames.

Frames are a huge fiction in “The Pickup Community” and a detrimental one at that. If you want to get massively stuck in your own head, wasting your mental energy on something that has absolutely no relevance in real life, then continue to believe in the gross fiction of framing.

And since he seems legit, I'm gonna take this as the answer to my question.

What do you think? Is he right?

Frames are one way to look at things, but not a very good way. As Rob points out, it's really inefficient to sit there and think, "OK, wait, what frame do I want to set? Am I controlling the frame right now?"

Having a strong frame is a side-effect of being dominant and attractive. If you take care of the fundamentals, frames will take care of themselves.

So yeah, don't worry about them.

I think he is right because in my expierience you cannot manipulate women and you should not overestimate the frame control you can exert. It's just not realistic. For example, you can't make her like you with a "boyfriend destroyer" if she has a boyfriend and ignores you. On the other hand frame control is indeed helpful if you are nervous around women, for example, when women test you or when assuming attraction encourages you or when you are required to be a confident leader. If you do these things habitually (unconscious competence), then of course frame control is fiction and nerdy as Rob Judge can say. Still even a newbie like me does need to have frame control. I just do my normal thing.
The reason why so many guys believe in frame control is that to move things forward you and her need to accept a meaning of the interaction. How much will she be influenced by your interpretation? Your confidence is certainly a factor part of the answer to this question but no one can answer this question for sure. That's because it depends on your weltanschauung: do people give a shit or is the world totaly indifferent to you? how much can and should you try to control? Do you want to find out the truth or do you think life is about power?

(05-14-2011 09:11 PM)saito Wrote:  If you do these things habitually (unconscious competence), then of course frame control is fiction and nerdy as Rob Judge can say.

Maybe this is why my nerd radar has been going off while reading this thread. I'm beginning to think that you guys are WAY smarter than I am by the way you word things (over my head lol). I think this whole 'framing' concept is stupid and there seems to be a lot of time wasted overanalyzing it.

(05-12-2011 09:32 AM)Frozen Flame Wrote:  I've just got back home and received some email newsletter that mentioned frames in pickup, so I've realized that I haven't fully grasped that concept yet. All I know is that frame is underlying meaning of the interaction, almost every "tactic" and example written in articles on how to set some frame seems kind of weird to me, or tryhard, or maybe I just misunderstood everything.

So let's just say that I nothing about it - how would you guys explain frames to me? Do they matter that much at all, because maybe it's even better not to think in that way?

Mark said you should not put a mask on you during daygame.

(05-15-2011 03:31 AM)Freedomone Wrote:  

(05-12-2011 09:32 AM)Frozen Flame Wrote:  I've just got back home and received some email newsletter that mentioned frames in pickup, so I've realized that I haven't fully grasped that concept yet. All I know is that frame is underlying meaning of the interaction, almost every "tactic" and example written in articles on how to set some frame seems kind of weird to me, or tryhard, or maybe I just misunderstood everything.

So let's just say that I nothing about it - how would you guys explain frames to me? Do they matter that much at all, because maybe it's even better not to think in that way?

Mark said you should not put a mask on you during daygame.

I don't get what you mean... can you elaborate a bit?

(05-15-2011 01:37 AM)DaveyDrama Wrote:  Maybe this is why my nerd radar has been going off while reading this thread. I'm beginning to think that you guys are WAY smarter than I am by the way you word things (over my head lol). I think this whole 'framing' concept is stupid and there seems to be a lot of time wasted overanalyzing it.

Is there some use to frames as an academic / conceptual exercise? Yes.
Should the word / concept "frame" cross a guy's mind when he's out meeting women? Hell no!