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Hey Leo man I feel like someone else needs to step in here and say something about this.

Even if you're right about girls playing games and Mark is wrong, it's probably a lot more empowering/effective to simply believe that most of the time they aren't. Like Mark's said before, if you expect certain behaviour from women then you will most likely find women behave like that. So if you feel like women play a lot of games, it's quite possible that's because you're attracting that behaviour into your own life. Mark likely doesn't see women as playing games 99% of the time because he doesn't expect women to behave like that, and therefore doesn't attract that behaviour. So you've got to see that a big part of this is simply having the belief that women don't play games.

On the other hand, I wouldn't simply encourage you to cultivate a belief that was grounded in willful misperception, so I'll also say that regardless of whether it's helpful or not to have that belief, I really do believe Mark when he says that 99% of the time women don't play games.

No offence, but it's pretty obvious here that you're looking for evidence to back up a belief you firmly hold, rather than being open to changing your mind. From how invested you seem to be in arguing this point it seems like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about girls playing games, and so you're too invested in being right about this. I understand man. The last girl I hooked up with but didn't sleep with I got really 'fake alpha' about playing games. She flaked a couple of times by saying stuff had come up but was still saying how she really wanted to hang out. I called her out on her flaking and talked shit to my buddy about how I didn't take that behaviour from women. Eventually we ended up going on a date, and now I look back on it I think she really did want to see me, but was genuinely too busy to see me. The date went ok but there was much less tension than when we first met, and I think it was partly because I'd been OTT in 'showing her my boundaries. From her perspective she's just a really busy Philosophy major in her senior year, and she had to cancel a couple of times to finish some school work. I just look insecure by not being able to deal with this more calmly.

Maybe she was playing games, but I really doubt it. Like I said, in the end she did really want to meet up again, even after all the awkwardness of the flakes.

It was my issue, not hers. That's the message Mark's been trying to communicate.

I'd suggest before you hit you reply, you take minute a to think about why you're getting so insistent on it. I'm not trying to be a dick either, I think I need to take a little bit of time to think about this myself.

One other thing too; I know you regard Mark very highly, as do I, and we have a tendency to both congratulate and criticize him, but I think it's taking things a bit far to talk about subjects we really have little knowledge of, such as his affair with Erika. I know Mark's open about pretty much anything, but I don't think there's much to be gained from talking about something we don't understand. It's a little disrespectful too. Again, please don't be offended because I know I've certainly been guilty of similar projecting myself.

Hope you gain something from this man. Even if I don't agree with your POV I feel like I've actually learnt a lot watching you two argue this back and forth.

(04-13-2011 01:09 PM)Mark Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:I've been progressing in the interaction with X girl and as soon as I propose the date she starts to give me shit about how she can't get together with me, she says something along these lines: IDK, maybe, I let you know (I hate this phrase BTW), etc. That's when I say you have to disarm her games, you can't be standing there like an idiot and just say: ok, let me know. No way! You have to say something like: Hmmm!, that's a lot of uncertainty and I don't like uncertainty when you are sure what day and what time you are available we can make plans, otherwise this is not gonna work out.

Quote:I agree with your course of action. I don't agree with the labels "games" or "tests." Again, I think they imply an antagonistic relationship, and they also put 100% of the responsibility on the girl for what's happening, which I don't think is accurate at all.

I just see it as she doesn't like me enough to commit to a date and I'm not willing to wait around for a girl who doesn't know if she likes me enough. It's not her fault she feels that way. She's not trying to mislead me.

Let me ask you this, if a girl's way into you one night, but then two days later decides she actually doesn't want to see you, so she doesn't answer your calls or texts. Is that her playing games? No. She just changed her mind. She didn't like you enough. That's called flaking.

Well, 1st. of all I'm hitting on girls 15 years younger than me, so I'm not gonna expect them to be ready to go out with me on dates right away, it's gonna take time, effort and patience on my part. Even in your article about older women you say: If she likes you, she’s not going to play games and pretend that she doesn’t. She’s not going to test you as much or make you work for her attention. She’s going to genuinely show that she likes you and if you don’t like her back, then that’s usually fine too.
What I understood when I read that it's that implies that younger women are gonna play games and PRETEND they don't like you, that is to say: they are doing that on purpose.
And 2nd of all this even happen with women around my age (38 y-o) they show a lot of attraction just to look cold and distant afterwards. For me this is NORMAL, I see it like part of the game and I see it like a game itself I don't take it so seriously, again I just play along and I get the girl. Some sexual relationships happen right away, some others take time. I'm not in a rush and I can wait for the woman's process, depending of the case. Especially if I'm seeing other women. I don't throw the towel so quickly, some women offer some resistance I keep plowing and I get the girl. If I give up every time a woman seems to be flaky I wouldn't get laid.

Quote:phone tag (you call/text her and she doesn't answer), scheduling games (she doesn't know when she's gonna be available = playing hard to get), ignoring you when you are close to her, just to confuse you.

Quote:Again, I think you're just being hyper-sensitive and interpreting these things as girls "playing games" when really, they're probably busy and need to call you later, or they just don't like you that much. I've played phone tag with girls for weeks. Some people are busy. Some people don't prioritize dates very high in their life.

I think you could be right about the hyper-sensitive part, I've been thinking about that myself. Sometimes I think I'm kinda paranoid. I have to work on it.

Quote:I can't think of a single example in the hundreds of women I've dated where a girl has CONSCIOUSLY chosen to not answer my calls because she thought it would make me like her more. If it happened, I'm sure I dumped her on the spot.

Did you bother to read the attachments I added to the thread? It seems like you din't. Have you heard about this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_rules BTW it was written by american women.

Quote:Again, the idea of "playing games" implies that they actually care... care so much about what you think about them, that they're willing to lie and mislead you. I've fucked girls for months and had them not care enough about me to actually GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to lie, not pick up my calls, make me think they don't like me or whatever the hell those types of girls do. In my experience, most women just aren't that into you. And so when they display hot/cold behavior, it's about them, not about you. To assume she's consciously fucking with you is a very self-centered way to look at it.

Sorry, but either you're consistently picking up the only conniving and twisted women, or you're just misinterpreting girls being flaky and not being that into you as "games."

When I mention "games" in those articles, what I'm referring to is flakiness and indecisiveness. I'll be more careful when using that word from now on.

Well, it seems that we see the world in a different way and that's fine with me. But at the same time I understand what are you trying to say about being self-centered and thinking that some women's behavior are done on purpose to fuck with you when they could just be busy. I have to be careful about it. But I do believe that a lot of women play games and I don't sweat it that much, I can choose to play along or move on, if what I initially saw was a lot of atracttion and right after she's acting cold and distant I'd think she's playing games, a lot of women believe in them, from diferent nationalities. For me it's like a pattern, women tend to do the same thing over and over again I play along and I get the girl, so easy like that. I wish all my interaction were so smooth that I have sex with the girl right away but usually they aren't like that, there's some token resistance, even from women that are hitting on me.

Thanks Eros I appreciate your comments, and yeah you are right it's healthier if you believe women are not playing games and they are saying the thruth. They deserve the benefit of the doubt, thanks for your example with that girl, it helped me a lot. I have to stop being so paranoid and being so self-centered like Mark said. It's good to be in this forum is in this way how you learn about yourself and can make changes in your behavior. Thank you, guys.

About Erika, well... they made it public so I think they don't mind.

(04-13-2011 01:30 PM)Eros Wrote: [ -> ]Hey Leo man I feel like someone else needs to step in here and say something about this.

Even if you're right about girls playing games and Mark is wrong, it's probably a lot more empowering/effective to simply believe that most of the time they aren't. Like Mark's said before, if you expect certain behaviour from women then you will most likely find women behave like that. So if you feel like women play a lot of games, it's quite possible that's because you're attracting that behaviour into your own life. Mark likely doesn't see women as playing games 99% of the time because he doesn't expect women to behave like that, and therefore doesn't attract that behaviour. So you've got to see that a big part of this is simply having the belief that women don't play games.

On the other hand, I wouldn't simply encourage you to cultivate a belief that was grounded in willful misperception, so I'll also say that regardless of whether it's helpful or not to have that belief, I really do believe Mark when he says that 99% of the time women don't play games.

No offence, but it's pretty obvious here that you're looking for evidence to back up a belief you firmly hold, rather than being open to changing your mind. From how invested you seem to be in arguing this point it seems like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about girls playing games, and so you're too invested in being right about this. I understand man. The last girl I hooked up with but didn't sleep with I got really 'fake alpha' about playing games. She flaked a couple of times by saying stuff had come up but was still saying how she really wanted to hang out. I called her out on her flaking and talked shit to my buddy about how I didn't take that behaviour from women. Eventually we ended up going on a date, and now I look back on it I think she really did want to see me, but was genuinely too busy to see me. The date went ok but there was much less tension than when we first met, and I think it was partly because I'd been OTT in 'showing her my boundaries. From her perspective she's just a really busy Philosophy major in her senior year, and she had to cancel a couple of times to finish some school work. I just look insecure by not being able to deal with this more calmly.

Maybe she was playing games, but I really doubt it. Like I said, in the end she did really want to meet up again, even after all the awkwardness of the flakes.

It was my issue, not hers. That's the message Mark's been trying to communicate.

I'd suggest before you hit you reply, you take minute a to think about why you're getting so insistent on it. I'm not trying to be a dick either, I think I need to take a little bit of time to think about this myself.

One other thing too; I know you regard Mark very highly, as do I, and we have a tendency to both congratulate and criticize him, but I think it's taking things a bit far to talk about subjects we really have little knowledge of, such as his affair with Erika. I know Mark's open about pretty much anything, but I don't think there's much to be gained from talking about something we don't understand. It's a little disrespectful too. Again, please don't be offended because I know I've certainly been guilty of similar projecting myself.

Hope you gain something from this man. Even if I don't agree with your POV I feel like I've actually learnt a lot watching you two argue this back and forth.

Haha... more like she made it public. I've made no public comments about the situation to my knowledge.

Maybe she wrote a lay report haha

Lol, she did actually. It was like 10 pages long. I asked her to take it down and she did. That was like late 2009 I think...

Man, did she ever turn into a fruitcake...

WHAT? REALLY??? I'm shocked.

It often surprises guys when they hear that this industry has its own set of "groupies," basically girls who just want to bang a PU coach for no other reason than that he's a PU coach.

It often DOESN'T surprise guys when they hear that these women tend to be absolutely batshit.

Got any jobs going Mark?

(04-15-2011 09:53 PM)Mark Wrote: [ -> ]It often surprises guys when they hear that this industry has its own set of "groupies," basically girls who just want to bang a PU coach for no other reason than that he's a PU coach.

It often DOESN'T surprise guys when they hear that these women tend to be absolutely batshit.

Wait, what? There are dating coach groupies? Maybe I don't follow this scene as much as I used to but I had no idea.

I would be utterly fascinated to read a full blog post about this.